Ok, this has turned out to be quite difficult primarily due to the fact that big + fat = expensive. Additionally i've never played WHF so in many cases i've been unsure of whether various bits and bobs are worth spending points on. As a result some of my gear for the heros will be largely down to experimentation. (I've left them off this preliminary list for that exact reason)
My force will be something similar to this:
Bruiser 105 Points,
+ Heavy Armour 4 Pts.
- - - > 109 Points
3 Ogres 90 Pts., Handweapon & Ironfist 6 Pts.
- - - > 96 Points
3 Ogres 90 Pts., Handweapon & Ironfist 6 Pts.
- - - > 96 Points
3 Ironguts 129 Pts.
20 Gnoblars 50 Pts.
Total Points Ogre Kingdoms : 480
I don't want to post any pics of the Ogres unnecessarily thus diddling myself out of claiming them in later painting challenges ;) I hope you can take my Mordheim warlock Raimondo and his trusty bog eyed monkey pet (read: Warhound) as compensation.
Instead of taking two units of 3 ogres, form it into one unit and give yourself at least a standard bearer for combat resolution. Musician and Champion are useful if you have the points spare. Gnoblars are an expendable portion of your army which you could maybe add later, but that's 50 points you could be spending on one of your more dependable units.
ReplyDeleteJust my 2p :D
i was under the impression that to be a legal army you needed at least 3 units? or 3 core? maybe i made that up. it was slightly unnerving knowing that what few ogres i had would be all in one unit.
ReplyDeletenone of the escalation 500 point lists i've seen have units above maybe 3/4 models. could be all the ones i've seen were crap too though ;)
Under the current rules the points must be spent like so:
ReplyDeleteUp to 25% of your overall points can be spent on Lord choices.
Up to 25% of your overall points can be spent on Heroes choices.
At least 25% of your overall points must be spent on Core choices.
Up to 50% of your overall points can be spent on Special choices.
Up to 25% of your overall points can be spent on Rare choices, but you can only have a maximum of two of each kind unless your army exceeds 3000 points (so a maximum of two Ironblasters for example.
So in 500 points, your army could look something like this:
Bruiser - 105
Heavy Armour - 4
Ironfist - 4
5 Ogres - 150
Ironfists - 10
Full Command - 30
4 Leadbelchers - 172
Full Command - 20
Total: 485
The Leadbelchers could be replaced with Ironguts easily since they cost the same amount and the spare 15 points can go towards the extra command group member that Ironguts can have (Leadbelchers don't get a standard bearer).
Either list means you're fielding a legal army. The thing with small units is they might be more manoeuvrable but I would quite happily charge a unit of 3 ogres with my 30 goblins because I'm going to win out on combat resolution (I have more ranks than you, so I'm not likely to run away) whereas a unit of 5 Ogres with a Bruiser and a unit of 4 Leadbelchers or Ironguts backing them up is a different prospect entirely.
this is where the concept of rank and file in regards to WHFB rules is completely alien to me. obviously i never had to deal with it in 40k so the implications of such things are kinda lost on me. probably need to read a fucktonne before our games, and probably watch you guys play a game or two too so that i can see a lot of these things in practise.
ReplyDeleteTo give a basic overview of why ranks are important, I shall impart a possible wall of text!
ReplyDeleteRanks 101:
In WHFB, bigger is better. There the are a few reasons why a few ranks are important to a unit's survivability in a game. For every rank you have after the first (so not the rank with the command guys in) you get +1 to your combat resolution, up to a maximum of 3. This gives you a big advantage in combat.
To give you an example, lets say your unit of 3 Ogres charges my unit of 30 goblins. My goblins are ranked 5 wide and 6 deep, giving me 5 ranks. Your Ogres inflict pretty big casualties and kill 6 of my goblins. I manage to somehow score 3 wounds against you. Now it's time to tally up the combat resolution.
We'll ignore bonuses for charging and stuff for now, and look at ranks vs kills. Your ogres killed 6 goblins, giving you a total of 6 combat resolution. I inflicted 3 wounds, but I add my rank bonus (3) to my combat resolution, putting me up to 6 as well. Ignoring the fact that I have a banner, we would have drawn the combat, even though you killed more than I did.
The second reason ranks are important is for stubbornness. Let's say you beat me by 3. I would have to minus the result from my Leadership (just like 40k), putting me at something like LD 3. Not good. However, I have more ranks than you do. What this does is give my unit the Stubborn ability, meaning that because there are more of me, my guys aren't as scared as they probably should be and I don't take any negative modifiers to my Leadership from combat resolution.
The third and final reason that ranks are good is combat in general. Not only does having ranks mean you have more dudes to soak up wounds, the second rank gets to attack. So your unit of 3 ogres gets 9 attacks. A second rank and a champion in that unit and you're looking at 19 attacks instead. A standard bearer gets you another +1 to your combat resolution.
Normal sized models need 5 models wide to claim a rank. Ogres, being huge, only need 3.
Hope that helps some!
wow. didnt expect that level of explanation on here. VERY grateful though. sounds like my proposed units of 3 will indeed be spreading myself way too thin to be useful and i'll need to mob up some of those to a larger unit.
ReplyDeletestill unsure of your leadbelcher suggestion, might need to mull that over. plus in the name of fairness i feel a certain obligation to learn my army list through experience and mistakes rather than taking the easy route of listening to someone wiser (not that the advise isnt appreciated) i'd feel a slight hollow victory if by fluke i won with a list essentially stolen from you rather than losing with a list i made but where i learnt a load about my own army.
hope you get the jist of what im trying to say here, im not trying to be rude! i'd like to take onboard what you've said and come up with something i feel will work rather than being lazy and taking what you've suggested!
Oh yeah definitely. Mine was just an example. The benefit of Leadbelchers is you give your army some much needed ranged support (also when is Ogres carrying stolen cannons ever not funny?) but Ironguts are also great so can't really go wrong!
ReplyDeleteI think you need more gnoblars, Oly. Lots and lots of squishy gnoblars with their strength 2 attacks.
ReplyDeleteAlso, great explanation Deke of the way combat resolution works. Only thing I wasn't sure on was the Stubborn rule because of the ranks. Is that new or was it in 6th/7th edition? I can't remember!
yus. grand explanation. still slightly confuzzled as to this combat resolution mechanic but that sounds pretty integral to the entire operation and as such im sure ill get it after witnessing one fight :)
ReplyDeleteThere's a pretty simple breakdown of what counts towards combat resolution in the rulebook, but we can go through it with the first few games I'm sure.
ReplyDeleteRoss: while Stubborn as a rule has been present for a while, the "more ranks than you" rule was only introduced in the latest edition so it's quite new. It's good in a way because sheer numbers is going to give a unit a lot of bravado (however false it may be... looking at my goblins here) and help them to man up and stick around.
Khem. You mean goblin up and stick around.
ReplyDeleteAh that explains it then! Only read about 2 pages of the new rulebook. Oly gave me his and told me to digest it (with madcap mushrooms).
ReplyDeleteMy goblins never stuck around for very long. Although, I do get lucky sometimes with double 1 for leadership. I'm also quite good at rolling that in other phases (magic, combat, shooting) however. :(
It has been about 10 years since I played Fantasy! That makes me feel old.
Well the great thing now is that as well as ranks helping you stick around, any unit within 12" of a Battle Standard Bearer can re-roll *any* Leadership-based test. You can imagine how useful that is for goblins!
ReplyDelete